2008 Smart 3 Bars N15/5 Fault Preventing Tran Teaching

[sm4rtc4r]

Howdy,

 

I'm trying to sort out a 3 bars issue during start sequence.  What began as a key fob issue, which led to a battery disconnect during troubleshooting, has become a transmission teaching sequence failure.  I have checked all fuses and read through the other message threads.  An Ancel FX3000 scanner returns the following fault:  NO OR INCORRECT CAN MESSAGE FROM CONTROL UNIT N15/5 (ELECTRONIC SELECTOR LEVER MODULE CONTROL UNIT).  The battery has a good charge, clutch is actuating with key switched on.  Wheels are off the ground.  Have done an inspection of wiring for obvious defects, grounds near batter posts, checked fuses, rear brake lights work, gone through shifting from P-R-N-D-M repeatedly, disconnectsd Pawl Switch Plug on tranny to verify clean connection, can hear actuator moving and some mechanical shifting going on in the trans, but never get a P indication on the display.  I've run through the teaching steps with brake depressed for minutes at at time, rocked vehicle back and forth....Analogs (throttle, brake pressure, temp, yaw, steering wheel angle, etc) read good.  Valves are cycling.  It seems like the error message could be either a position mismatch or failed comms.  Does anyone have experience testing for this specific fault, or know of test points where I can verify comms and voltage for the N15/5 module in the shifter, and would a module failure return just the subject fault message or multiple error codes.  I've use the scanner to clear the fault, or at least try, but it's constant.  I've not yet removed any mechanical components or solenoids, as the transmission teaching sequence fault only appeared following a battery disconnect to troubleshoot a broken key.  It would also be great to know what specific components are used for teaching that are not used in normal operation, in case a component or wire was already failing prior to the transmission losing its position in memory.  Thanks for the help in advance!

[Mjolinor]

Presumably you have tried disconnecting the battery again.

 

If you do not connect the battery with one try and no sparks then they do all sorts of stupid things.

 

[sm4rtc4r]

I have disconnected the battery several times and let it charge overnight.  Correct, thank you for the feedback.  

[Willys]

I do not know of any way to re-teach a tranny other than to use a STAR machine. It has lost the positions, or rotation counts for each gear, possibly. I do not know of another machine that can get the count  back...sorry.  IF you think you are planning on keeping the car for any length of time I would strongly suggest sourcing out one on Ebay .....a complete kit seems to run in the $750 range. Which if you cost the price of a few trips to a dealership if you can find one that wants to work on a Smart it will pay for itself in short order. Plus you can also make some back helping other people who desperately need someone to help their issues.  Sounds nasty but it works as they are willing to pay someone to do the work so why not you at a far less rate than a shop...?  Just a thought.
Have you been over to Evilution.co.uk to see what they say about this and IF there is another way to re-teach the transmission ..? Pay their smallest donation and get deep into their library of knowledge, it's well worth the cost.  Nowhere else has this depth of information imho. The only issue is they do not chat, nothing, so you must do the research yourself which is a good thing after you get into it. That's how we learn, not being smart about it, just it is what it is.lol.

Sorry couldn't be of more help.

 

[Mjolinor]

I have a Star system but rarely use it now. It is a lot of messing about and a Delphi copy from China costs about £40 and gives much the same functionality provided you have a computer with USB that you can use.

 

[Willys]

3 minutes ago, Mjolinor said:

I have a Star system but rarely use it now. It is a lot of messing about and a Delphi copy from China costs about £40 and gives much the same functionality provided you have a computer with USB that you can use.

 

Please show where to get it and what is involved in setting one up....thanks....many would greatly appreciate the knowledge I'm sure!
When I was looking for mine you couldn't find a Dell 640 to save your life.......the laptop that was required to use the Chinese hardware from Ebay, then the multiplexer.....it was a nightmare to get back then, now I see they are again readily available or was the last time someone looked for one...BUT $750 complete......So learning what you used and how to get it up and running would be greatly appreciated I'm sure....
Thanks.

 

[Mjolinor]

Maybe 10 years ago I bought a C3 mux off ebay for £200 and have used it for the Smart and Mercedes. I set it up myself with a Panasonic CF29 that I bought specifically for the job, that was £30 off ebay.

 

I used that for years until I bought a Delphi. That was maybe five years ago. I have recently replaced the Delphi with a single board one. The single board one works better than the two board one and I was having some problems. They come with a questionable copy of the software and are very easy to install. My last one cost me £36 about three months ago.

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?trafficChannel=main&d=y&CatId=0&SearchText=Single+board+9241nec+2017.R3+Best+Software+2016&ltype=wholesale&SortType=default&page=1

 

Most of them have a problem with using a resistor in place of a proper can bus driver though this problem only shows itself on some vehicles and it is never a problem on a Smart car, they always work.

 

I have never tried to do tan coding with it and have no idea if it will do that, I no longer own a 450 and it is not relevant on a 451. It reads all systems correctly as far as I can tell. I have used both the C3 Star and the Delphi on the same car at the same time (well one after the other) and have never found anything it has missed. It will reteach the clutch perfectly and allows monitoring of all data in real time as well as saving it to a file for later examination.

 

It does lots of other stuff as well that I have never really got into over much.

 

[tyc]

Smart 450/2000 works with delphi ds 150 but without TAN coding and some functions. And you need to know in advance how a certain defect manifests, etc. - indicates only where the defect is (sometimes). .
The 451 computer system is probably a little more 'open'.

 

[sm4rtc4r]

Thank you very much for the feedback.  I had a locksmith come over yesterday and was able to rule a few more things out.  I'm still troubleshooting a 3 lines on the instrument display fault.  The transmission teach sequence is being initiated and completed as far as I can tell from the OBD readers and the sound of shifting gears observed immediately after connecting the battery and switching on the key.  The CAN diagnostic tools I'm using all show the same component, 15/5, to be faulty.  I've checked the resistance across pins 5/6 for the H-L CAN bus communications on the device; 50k ohms as expected.  12V supply and grnd are both present, as well as the 60 ohm reading between 5/6 on the vehicle side.  One value I did not expect and would appreciate verification of is approx 660 ohms between H/L to vehicle ground.  Could someone please removed the connector on the front of the shifter and check this value with a meter?  I would greatly appreciate the assistance verifying this value on a known good 451.  Please post the resistance for pin 5 to grnd and pin 6 to grnd.  The reading can also be taken at the OBD port reading 6 to grnd and 14 to grnd.  

Edited February 6, 2022 by sm4rtc4r

[Mjolinor]

CANH and CANL to ground is not specified in the CANBUS spec. Only CANH and CANL to each other as it is a differential signal not referenced to ground in any way.

 

Why do you think 660 ohms is not reasonable?

 

 

[sm4rtc4r]

I wouldn't have made any assumption about the 660 being incorrect had I not stumbled across a Canbus troubleshooting video online.  The person in the video suggested his reading of 6.6k ohm or above should be normal.  I am getting a solid 660, unless I swap the +/- leads, then it drops 30 ohms.  I've got the same reading at several different points in the Canbus wiring so it seems correct, just wanted to rule it out with another vehicle if possible.  Thank you very much for the reply.  

[Mjolinor]

I think it could be anything. Each of the devices on the bus add a parallel impedance. If you want to know if it is right then disconnect everything and measure each one then work out the parallel impedance for the sum.

 

Assuming the battery is disconnected when you do this then if you are getting different impedances when the leads are reversed it would suggest that there are still charged caps in there or a battery back up. It also depends what you are measuring it with. There should be no difference when the leads are reversed.

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Mjolinor