2008 gas, will not crank

[simeybinker]

Hello all,

 

I’m back, and I somewhat wish I wasn’t because it means my smart has died… again. Actually, it’s my girlfriend’s smart - but I did own a diesel years ago.

 

the car shut off while driving, and would not restart. Not even a crank. Just beeps loudly. I’ve taken it to Mercedes Burlington, and they claim the SAM needs replacing, AND the key fob. Their reasoning is that the key is sending a signal to the SAM, but the SAM doesn’t send a signal out to fire the starter. I took apart the SAM and found no visible damage or corrosion, and even the starter relay works. I asked if the SAM was giving any codes that would indicate that any other module was preventing the SAM from starting, but they dodged the question. I just don’t want to spend a bunch of money to replace the SAM, when in fact it was some other module that was complaining.

 

is this a common thing? I questioned why they needed a new key(s) and couldn’t just reprogram the existing ones, and they came up with some dodgy explanation that I don’t fully trust.

[Willys]

The Stealership simple want to make the repair costs too high and you'll scrap the car.....PM smart142 (glenn)  he lives in London and used to work on these cars. Not sure if he still does but worth the message.   Keep watching your thread as someone will speak up and try and suggest a solution.   Check all your grounding pins, stupid simple and usually solves the keep it simple issues. When you had your SAM apart, did you look for cold solder pins? A very faint ring around the soldered pin on the circuit board. IF the pin gets too hot it starts to melt the solder but then cools leaving that ring. The ring is a now bad connection which causes all sorts of problems. IF you find these you can de-solder the pins and re-solder it to fix that pin issues.  Check all connections from the SAM for hot connection points etc...
Good luck.

 

[Nigel]

I’m not familiar with 451’s and their security system but when you push the unlock or lock button on the fob do the doors lock and unlock?  If so there is nothing wrong with the keys.  I also suspect the dealer is not diagnosing this problem properly.  I second the suggestion to pm Glenn and see what he has to say.  
 

Nigel

[Mjolinor]

 

Is it a 451?

 

If so:

You cannot easily reprogramme a used key for another SAM.

I would suspect a broken earth lead from the engine to the car. This is under the dipstick and a dog to get at.

When you say the starter relay works do you mean the starter solenoid or the relay in the SAM?

If the starter relay in the SAM is clicking then no way would I replace the SAM, I would get a voltmeter and see whether the relay output is working and from there trace the wire back to the solenoid on the starter. If it is the solenoid that is clicking then I would suspect the starter itself, the wiring at the starter or the earth lead.

 

Engine stopping mid flight is a strange one for any sort of starter fault though

[Willys]

Curious, and this shows how little I know about anything other than my 450 model....where is the key in the usual location? IF so do you hold your hand near the key when driving as in manually changing gears as you drive like I do? I have accidentally touched the key in a way that I turned the key just enough to switch the key off which killed the engine, obviously.  IF so, then you have a different route to take maybe in figuring out why the car won't start as the above post suggests. IF the SAM etc didn't shut car off or the key itself,(which I can't see it doing as the key needs to turn to switch power off correct?) You can disregard why the car shut off and figure out why it won't turn on as in activate the solinoid of the starter. These cars are also known for having a loose power flat blade connection to the solinoid that does wiggle loose or get corroded enough to make a poor connection. You can reach it using a long nosed pair of needle nose pliers. OR you need to dig for it if you can get your hands that far down in the abbiss lol. As said above you first or secondly check for a power signal coming from the SAM.  I also agree that the main engine ground is a typical source of problems as it is a braided wire that disintergrates at the earliest time possible...!!!! Simply replace it using a piece of welding wore from Princess Auto or similar auto parts place, something with a rubber coating and good eyelets. IF any of this doesn't help, research key tumbler issues or check connections under the console to see if one of those connections wiggled loose or corroded?
I agree that the key fob wouldn't shut the engine off but could stop it from restarting IF it had issues. Bad battery, worn push buttons or broken foil switch in the fob itself. The foil switch can be repaired if you have time and steady hands and another fob to harvest the very delicate foil in the switch.  That way you do not need to re-program your fob just try and repair switch. You will require some magnifying glasses or similar if you are older than 20....lol.
Again hope this helps.

Do not trust the dealership for anything other than a few possible cheaper parts such as oil and air filters etc which shocked me a few years back.   They also can get parts much faster than any other supplier and can get almost anything all they need is your vin # and a description of what you are after. Parts desk not service dept.
 

[simeybinker]

If I obtain a SAM with key from another Smart, can I install the SAM in this dead car, and hold the key nearby, while I turn the original key in the barrel, will it start? Or are there other modules in the car which are programmed to the unique SAM, and it’ll get angry with me?

[Mjolinor]

No. If you do that the car will install the higher of the two mileages from either the SAM or the speedo. I don't think the mileage is recorded in the engine ECU but I am not sure on that. It will also log a fault in the SAM or ECU saying the VIN is incorrect.

 

It is just a bad idea that will get you nowhere.

 

You need to start more basically. Does the starter work, are the earths good. It is a standard starter motor that needs a big supply (thick wire) and a start signal (thin wire), get some jump leads on the starter and see if it works. After ten years the starter could be rusted solid.

 

There is no quick fix. The only way is to methodically go through things until you either find the fault orfail to find the fault and in that case the electronics is to blame.

 

[Willys]

All 3 of the car's computers must be taught to talk to each other I'm afraid which requires a STAR machine. And yes the speedo will record the highest mileage whichever it is which really doesn't matter as all you want is to start the car, imho.
Back to the starter, check for a signal on the solenoid or live wire on the starter when the key is turned. IF no power there then you have issues away from the starter. IF you have a signal but still no crank then you either have a bad corroded spade connector where that wire attaches to the solenoid or the main wire running from solenoid to the starter (it's that short braided copper wire) is either badly corroded or broken usually because of corrosion.  OR as stated above the starter is simply rusted solid.  Changing the starter isn't a fun job but is possible if you are persistant and driven to do it.  Easiest way is to lower the subframe or better explained is to raise body off subframe. Just chock all wheels and carefully undo the 4 subframe bolts. You also must undo intake tube from air box or you'll rip it off air box. It means taking the driver's side rear inner fender out, easy enough and then 4 phillips head screws. Once that is done you simply need to jack up the car slowly and constantly checking for attached wiring and fuel lines.  You should be able to lift it 10 or so inches which will allow you to work between body and subframe to allow easy access to starter.  OR you can go after it the hard way and go in from the passenger's side rear wheel well removing plenty to get at the starter. I did it this way once, took me 4 hours and plenty of swearing.   To each their own as which way is best....if you do raise body up make sure it's resting on jack stands before you get between body and subframe...safety first....
A starter should be around $250 for a new one a bit less for rebuilt but the small difference is so small now why buy rebuilt?  Yes from China but they are all good now a days.

 

[Mjolinor]

+ Watch your brake pipes and make sure the handbrake is off before you lift.

[Willys]

3 hours ago, Mjolinor said:

+ Watch your brake pipes and make sure the handbrake is off before you lift.

IF you undo the clips for the brake lines and ABS sensors you may get enough lift without having to actually disconnect stuff....you must be aware of everything as you lift it slowly.....and yes when lowering you must re-install handbrake rod back in it's tube with the stepped side to the correct side or the handbrake won't work.   Again pay attention as you lift it slowly and remember what required loosening etc and such so you can lower it correctly etc etc.

 

[simeybinker]

Thanks all,

 

I’ve gotten my car back from Mercedes - it is still dead. They claim that the SAM requires replacement, which requires new key fobs be flashed/burnt. I’ll check the starter tomorrow, but assuming it is the SAM, is there a painless way of replacing this without a STAR or key fob swapping etc? 

[MikeT]

No.

 

Dealer or someone with a star machine and new SAM.

[Willys]

You can try a used SAM, I have a few and a STAR,  but am having issues with burning key fobs lately...not sure if the STAR has a limit which requires an updating to be able to burn more key fobs...?  I also do not have anymore new fobs....sorry.

I'm curious what the insane monetary amount they quoted you for such work and a new SAM....I expect you required a seat!    lol.

 

[Nigel]

2 hours ago, Willys said:

You can try a used SAM, I have a few and a STAR,  

 

I doubt you have a used SAM for this car.  He is talking about a gasoline 451. 

[Willys]

16 minutes ago, Nigel said:

I doubt you have a used SAM for this car.  He is talking about a gasoline 451. 

You are correct, my mistake...I seem to assume everyone has the far better...lol....2005-2006 dirty fueled diesel model     lol....sorry....

[Mjolinor]

3 minutes ago, Willys said:

You are correct, my mistake...I seem to assume everyone has the far better...lol....2005-2006 dirty fueled diesel model     lol....sorry....

 

Which absolutely would be my car of choice in the UK if only it were available here in this place where quote: "the cars are far better with more options".

 

No 450 RHD were made ever though you could buy a non grey import 450 LHD from Smart (Merc) at the time.

[simeybinker]

On 2023-11-18 at 8:37 AM, Willys said:

You can try a used SAM, I have a few and a STAR,  but am having issues with burning key fobs lately...not sure if the STAR has a limit which requires an updating to be able to burn more key fobs...?  I also do not have anymore new fobs....sorry.

I'm curious what the insane monetary amount they quoted you for such work and a new SAM....I expect you required a seat!    lol.

 

 

They were all over the place. The initial call I got was the service guy saying it’s usually $2400, but they’d get it done for $1200. Then when I showed up, they said it would be $2200, but usually it would cost $3000. It’s just highway robbery.

 

Has anyone tried VEpro.ca or similar? Apparently they can clone your existing SAM onto a used or new SAM, and everything works fine.

 

oh, also I bypassed the SAM and turned the starter by applying 12V directly to the purple wire that plugs into the SAM. So the starter and ground strap is fine.

Edited November 19, 2023 by simeybinker

[Mjolinor]

With the ignition on and your foot on the footbrake what happens on the speedo when you put it in reverse / neutral / drive and "gear up"?

 

Does the speedo say the correct things?

 

I see no evidence for the SAM being faulty over any of the other things that can cause a none start problem such as gearbox computer (under passenger seat) gear selector (under intercooler), clutch actuator and a whole host of other stuff.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Mjolinor

[Willys]

13 hours ago, simeybinker said:

 

They were all over the place. The initial call I got was the service guy saying it’s usually $2400, but they’d get it done for $1200. Then when I showed up, they said it would be $2200, but usually it would cost $3000. It’s just highway robbery.

 

Has anyone tried VEpro.ca or similar? Apparently they can clone your existing SAM onto a used or new SAM, and everything works fine.

 

oh, also I bypassed the SAM and turned the starter by applying 12V directly to the purple wire that plugs into the SAM. So the starter and ground strap is fine.

IF you can find someone with a STAR local to you imho you could re-teach a secondhand SAM to speak with your existing speedo and ECU which should be far far cheaper than what they are quoting you.  Christ you can buy a ready to use STAR off Ebay I believe for under $1,000 and have it ready to use to solve any other issues that surface. I'm not sure what a SAM would cost you for your model but it can't be that bad...used of course from a running car.   OR you could find a wrecked car and swap in all 3 of the computers if your model works the same as a 450 model as they must be all changed together IF you do not have a STAR to re-teach each unit to talk to the other 2.    Personally this is the very reason I purchased my own STAR, knowing these thieves would try to bleed me dry.  IMHO, all these stealership want to quote you so high a repair bill that you choose to scrap the car so they get them all off the roads so they never need to work on them.  They aren't the easiest car to work on as there is almost zero space to get your hands around the engine compartment.
IF you are interested in the STAR there is a specific version of the multi-plexer that works best for our cars. for my 450 that would be the one that uses the C-3 multiplexer or is it a M-3, either way it's the number 3 version.    Someone who uses it for your model will chime in to say for sure.   IF you are planning on owning your car for any length of time I would buy a STAR, you can always sell it after you sell the car and re-coop most of your money back.  You already know what it's capable of, that can save you the cost of purchasing it...so why not if you can afford it..?

 

[Mjolinor]

Pretty basic question:

Is "gas" gasoil (Frog) or gasoline (Yanker) in Canada?

Petrol and diesel and so much easier for us simple folk.

 

Is the left side (sitting in the car) carpet dry underneath. On the 451 there is the gearbox ECU under the passenger (UK) seat and there can be problems with the CANBUS talking to the SAM if it gets wet. I do not know if the gearbox ECU switches sides when you put the steering wheel on the wrong side.

 

I still reckon you have not done enough to condemn the SAM yet. I am not saying it is not the SAM, merely that it is as likely to be any one of a dozen other things and you need to eliminate them one at a time.

 

[Willys]

4 minutes ago, Mjolinor said:

Pretty basic question:

Is "gas" gasoil (Frog) or gasoline (Yanker) in Canada?

Petrol and diesel and so much easier for us simple folk.

 

Is the left side (sitting in the car) carpet dry underneath. On the 451 there is the gearbox ECU under the passenger (UK) seat and there can be problems with the CANBUS talking to the SAM if it gets wet. I do not know if the gearbox ECU switches sides when you put the steering wheel on the wrong side.

 

I still reckon you have not done enough to condemn the SAM yet. I am not saying it is not the SAM, merely that it is as likely to be any one of a dozen other things and you need to eliminate them one at a time.

 

Yes the term is gasoline not petrol and us north americans are even lazier and shorten it down to gas...lol   I'm an ex-pat from Uttoxeter.

I can't offer much in the way of actual advice as to location and such of anything but for the 450 but I expect all issues are transferable so to speak......as you say yes they all leak and yes most if not all carpets are soaked. I do not know if the 451 suffers the same issues in the SAM as the 450 does for burned pins, connections, cold solder joints on the circuit board or not.....like the 450 does?   I still stand with the idea of owning a STAR if you want to do your own repairs which will easily pay for itself, also you can help fellow smart car owners for a small fee or donation etc to help re-coop some of the purchase costs. Diagnosis, re-teaching, keys, plenty of ways if you so choose. The STAR that you do buy off the internet is in the semi grey area as it can never be allowed to touch the internet as it will try and update itself which will render it useless.  But that is easy to stop happening...VPN and never turn the internet on for that screen.   Hmmmm....????? Shhhh.......

[simeybinker]

On 11/20/2023 at 0:07 AM, Mjolinor said:

With the ignition on and your foot on the footbrake what happens on the speedo when you put it in reverse / neutral / drive and "gear up"?

 

Does the speedo say the correct things?

 

I see no evidence for the SAM being faulty over any of the other things that can cause a none start problem such as gearbox computer (under passenger seat) gear selector (under intercooler), clutch actuator and a whole host of other stuff.

 

I had taken the SAM in and out a few times, and although initially I don’t remember this being the case, it currently gives me the “3 bars of doom” on attempted start. When trying to start, it beeps super loudly. The only code I have is P1800, which I’m looking into now.

 

[Mjolinor]

Have you re-taught the gearbox?

 

Instructions in the owners manual I think.

 

 

[simeybinker]

I haven’t yet - I’ll give it a shot tonight.

Edited November 28, 2023 by simeybinker

[simeybinker]

Following instructions to reteach the gearbox (really just turn the key to acc with your foot on the brake and wait) didn’t do anything. I also did it with changing gears - because there’s some conflicting information online. The 3 bars remain on the dash. There is no noise coming from the gearbox.

 

I'm going to go under the drivers seat sometime and see if I can see anything obvious.