Cruise Control and Warranty Issues...

[WCLPeter]

Hi all...

I'm taking a trip to BC soon (see www.clubsmartcar.com/index.php?showtopic=5459 for more information).

With such a long distance to travel I've been seriously contemplating the Cruise Control mod. Whether I do it before I go, while I'm on the trip, or in BC before I go home it doesn't matter. I don't doubt that it will work as advertised, but I am concerned how it affects my warranty with MB and how the dealer treats you in particular.

For those that have had the mod done, have you had any problems with it? Does your dealer give you a hard time? If a warranty issue comes up, do they go "oh, you modded your car, go somewhere else"? Any weird, "freaky" issues that don't really cover what I'm asking?

Or is it just as good as it sounds, Cruise Control that should have been standard in the first place?

Pete...

[Speedie]

Cruise control is an option in Europe - in fact the kit uses the switch assembly. They came up with an add in board to get around the issue of not being able to flash the computer to euro specs to make it work. It just plugs inline with the accelerator wiring.Cheers,Cameron

[Dang]

I've had mine installed for quite a while, and have been back to the dealer and they didn't say a thing.Later! Dang

[ProgFrog]

When I got some warranty work done they wrote on the workorder that I had installed cruise control. When the they sent a claim in the cruise control came into question and they asked where I purchased, when I installed it etc... So far I haven't heard back from them.

[SmartieParts]

I'veactually installed the cruise at a couple dealerships recently as part of the pdi for their customer's cars... so that right there should attest to *those dealership's* comfort levels.Still... ANY aftermarket part can affect your warranty if it does in fact cause a problem. The bigger question is knowing where you got it from and whether you can trust the product or not. I've been selling them for over a year now and have heard of NO warranty problems so far. - Steven

[ValgardForkbeard]

Steven, didn't the dealer ask you to unplug some of your accessories during your "the doors won't open and I can't get out" episode? Worst case for warranty might be that they have to put things back to stock to troubleshoot problems, and you could be charged the shop time (but anything like that should be pre-authorized)MG

[SmartieParts]

Well, yes... that's true. But I had some odd things happening so I could see their point. But yes, you are correct... if they are having trouble diagnosing something they may want it back to stock before they can figure it out. However, if they do that and that rules OUT it being the problem, then in my view anyway they shouldn't be charging you for proving they were wrong. But how it really works... I don't know, hasn't come up. In my case, no - they didn't charge me a cent for extra diagnostics but I removed all my additions myself. - Steven

[smartzuuk]

Important to note too, that the cruise involves no wiring modifications per se - ie: no cutting or splicing of wires. It is truly a plug and play unit, and part of it is the OEM wiper stock to boot. It doesn't replace any existing parts (other than the OEM stock).

[bilgladstone]

The cool thing about the aftermarket cruise is that it has its own control board. The OEM cruise (an option in Europe that will probably make it over the pond for 2008 MY) has to have a dealer-input TAN code to activate it. [=$$$]Lovin' my smartieparts crooze!B:sun:

[Dang]

....has to have a dealer-input TAN code to activate it. [=$$$]...

Actually it's even worse the $$$. I was origionally going to retrofit the factory cruise control in. I found a dealer willing to do it, but they could not get the activation codes for the cruise from MBCanada for any amount of money. As soon as you type in a Canadian VIN (required to activate when connected to the car) it's just not a possible option. That may change in the future or have changed, this was over a year ago.Later! Dang

[SmartieParts]

No, its still the case. The factory cruise DOES NOT MEET transport Canada standards.Well, the MDC one probably doesn't either (beats me)... but different rules apply when you modify your own car versus importing the car as the vendor. It was probably something stupid like the switches are printed with "cont" (for continue) instead of "res" (for resume).There's really no reason why the new (2008?) models won't have cruise, since they are being redesigned for US use. HOWEVER, the US, more than anyone else, seems to have the attitude that these cars are "city" cars only. Canadians, at large, feel the same way. So it could very well lead to a marketing decision to not bother working about TC/DOT requirements for their cruise and again, leave it off the menu.That's my hope anyway its my best selling product! Still, from who I've spoken to, what I've read, and my own logic... I give it an 80% chance that we'll see cruise controls from the factory on the bigger, less efficient smarts of the future. - Steven

[WCLPeter]

There's really no reason why the new (2008?) models won't have cruise, since they are being redesigned for US use. HOWEVER, the US, more than anyone else, seems to have the attitude that these cars are "city" cars only. Canadians, at large, feel the same way. So it could very well lead to a marketing decision to not bother working about TC/DOT requirements for their cruise and again, leave it off the menu.

Yes I get that *all* the time. "You don't take that thing on the 401 do you?" and when I tell them I do they get a very shocked expression on their faces and go, "You're crazy, there's no way that things safe on the 401, don't you worry about getting into an accident?". If they're willing to listen I go on a tirade about how safe the car is and how I can take it into a wall at 60 Km and barely dent the front end.Most people just don't beleive it when I tell them that. So I completly understand where you're coming from with the whole "city" car problem. Hell, I've run into to people who start yelling at me, telling me that I'm being reckless for driving my Smart on the highway and that it shouldn't be legal for me to do so because the car is so small that it absolutley must be unsafe.I can completly see that attitude being even more prevelent in the US.Honestly I don't know if I'm looking forward to the US launch. They're not going to sell the diesel models anymore (or are they?) and whenver I tell everyone that's it diesel they really seem to give it serious thought as a second car. Even if the Gas Powered Smart gets the same mileage it's going to cost on average a few dollars more per tank to fill. Not to mention piss off the MB shops that upgraded their tools to service diesel vehicles now being told that it wasn't really all that necessary. And it's going to be bigger, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of the Smart.Pete...

[WCLPeter]

No, its still the case. The factory cruise DOES NOT MEET transport Canada standards.Well, the MDC one probably doesn't either (beats me)... but different rules apply when you modify your own car versus importing the car as the vendor. It was probably something stupid like the switches are printed with "cont" (for continue) instead of "res" (for resume).

I'm not sure, but I think it might have something to do with the MaxSpeed function.In North American cars, if you're using cruise and you hit the gas the cruise turns off and the car speeds up. But if I'm reading the information right, on the Smart cruise, if you have the MaxSpeed set, it won't matter how hard you tromp the gas the car won't go any faster.I'm thinkng that in the eyes of Transport Canada this is a tremendous saftey issue as someone who tries to accelerate out of a potential accident, or into faster moving traffic from a merge ramp, etc... Are now going to have to remember to hit a button first and *then* hit the gas. Since that involves more than a split second reaction, the potential for accidents is there. Or at least that's what I'm thinking they're thinking.Since MB would have to redesign the cruise for the Canadian markets, there would always be that potential you could flash a European computer with the Canadian code causing a saftey issue over there! So they probably figured it wasn't worth it, gave a nudge nudge, wink wink to the aftermarket to build the control board and just let it be.Unless they plan on building a seperate plant to handle the US orders, one could assume that the chances for cross contamination of the codes would be possible there as well so perhaps there's a good chance the US won't have cruise either. Especially if they bill it as a "city car" and don't emphasize highway driving.Pete...

[SmartieParts]

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think the euro-oem version has the MaxSpeed... that's just a "feature" of the aftermarket one. Since TC regs have nothing to do with aftermarket accessories (that you put on post-import, at least) I don't think its really a consideration or a reason smart didn't offer the cruise in NA. The MDC cruise has been around a LOT longer than the Canadian smart market... it was designed as a BETTER cruise then oem and sold well in a market where cruise was available as a factory option. it has more features and works more smoothly than the factory version (and costs less and doesn't require a tech to turn on).

In North American cars, if you're using cruise and you hit the gas the cruise turns off and the car speeds up.

Not *quite* the case. When you hit the gas, the cruise normally stays on but you can speed up. When you let go of the gas, you'll slow down to the previously set cruising speed and then the cruise will kick in again. This is how all NA cruises work that I've ever used - it is also how the MDC cruise works (when not using the MaxSpeed function that is).

I'm thinkng that in the eyes of Transport Canada this is a tremendous saftey issue as someone who tries to accelerate out of a potential accident, or into faster moving traffic from a merge ramp, etc... Are now going to have to remember to hit a button first and *then* hit the gas

From my (unfortunately) considerable experience with traffic court and insurance claims, I'd venture a guess that this isn't the case. Laws/regulations/policies are far more concerned about going too fast and not being able to slow down then they are about going too slow and not being able to speed up. It is ALWAYS the responsibility of the oncoming traffic to leave a safe distance from the vehicle in front of them, and to properly judge the forward car's speed. I definately see what you are saying... but I'd guess that TC wouldn't have a problem with a feature that limits a car's speed. I mean... if you ask any given official they may personally have an opinion on the matter, but I doubt there's a reg prohibiting it. But that's just my guess/opinion. I still think it was probably something silly like markings or documentation not being submitted on time. Or possibly they just didn't have time for testing.

For the record and to avoid confusion and misunderstanding regarding the MaxSpeed function (for casual readers of this thread) I'm going to post some facts about it:

• Hopefully that makes it somewhat clear for those not familiar.

- Steven

[MikeT]

The OEM Euro-cruise does have a maximum speed limiter function.They require that cruise equipped cars also have softouch because when the speed limiter is engaged, the speed limiter IS OVERRIDDEN bu pushing the accelerator pedal to the point where the kickdown switch is activated. So the conjecture that it would have to be manually disabled first before the pre-set maximum speed could be exceeded is wrong.So if MDC cruise is fitted to a softouch car, does the speed limiter function get over-ridden if the accelerator pdeal is floored? What about in non-softouch cars?

[SmartieParts]

If the OEM euro-cruise has a max speed function, how in the world is it engaged? I mean - there is no switch for it at all.

I don't get the kickdown switch thing... I mean, I undestand what you are saying, but there are two things that don't make sense: 1) The kickdown switch exists whether or not you have/use softtouch. The kickdown function only exists if you have softtouch, but the switch is there in all cars. So if they did it just because it was easier software wise... well, that was just being lazy Or probably more to the point - greedy (demanding upgraded tranny to get cruise). 2) The kickdown function is something that barely anyone is aware of. You have to REALLY floor it to hit it... and if you don't have a really strong leg, you probably aren't engaging it even when you think you are flooring it because it is a rather stiff switch... so if one accepts his argument that being locked into that speed is dangerous because you need to first disengage it... then I think its just as dangerous with the euro-method because nobody floors it when they need to go... they probably don't even go 75%, let alone 110%. Even in an emergency panic situation, you're more likely (and safer) to hit the brake and/or brace for impact then you are to shove your right foot all the way down. I tend to dismiss the "dangerous" argument in any case... sure you could accidentally set it to MaxSpeed as you are trying to accelerate onto the freeway, but if you are clumbsy or unfamiliar with the car you are just as likely to accidentally shift into neutral, or even bump your key and turn your car off as I've done in the past. There are lots of "accidents" that can be dangerous and I certainly don't think the MaxSpeed feature is anywhere near the worst possible one.

Anyway, to directly answer your question - As far as I know, the kick-down switch has no effect on the MDC cruise in any mode. I'm not certain as I've never tried it, but there is no documentation of such.

Its largely a moot point. Other than Dean, I've never actually received any feedback from ANY of my customers that they actually use the largely-useless MaxSpeed feature. It is not something that is used very often in NA on any vehicle, and the biggest reason to get a cruise is foot-fatigue - since you have to still hold the pedal down in MaxSpeed mode, why bother? Obviously there are uses... it exists for a reason. I just don't think it meshes very well into the NA driving culture and it is EASY to not use it... so it doesn't really matter one way or the other. Its there for the few that want it, and easily ignored for those that don't.

As far as I know, disengaging the MaxSpeed is only done by pushing the mode/cancel button, or pressing the brake if its been so-programmed. In normal cruise mode, you disengage by:

People buy the cruise for the CRUISE function (go figure). As far as I'm concerned, the MaxSpeed function is a largely useless (and admittedly potentially annoying if you accidentally set it) "bonus". A far more noteable bonus is the TheftProtection feature, which allows you to set a "code" before exiting the vehicle which completely locks out the accelerator. Even if a thief has your keys, they can start your engine but can't go anywhere.

- Steven

[MikeT]

The OEM cruise swith is activated by pushing the tip of the lever once, but tapping it twice in quick succession engages the speed limiter function.The kickdown over-ride description is straight from a 2003 smart press kit, so there you go. Yes, the kickdown switch probably is not active in non-softouch cars....though I seem to remember mini-moi needing a new accelerator module when her retrofitted softouch was added, and TPM lists a new accelerator module as one of the parts of the list. So are you sure about the non-softouch cars having the exact same pedal assembly?Anyway, I am not sure what the purpose of a speed limiter is if a simple push on the accelerator (to the first kickdown detent) will over-ride it! And how this would run afoul of Tranport Canada regulations, I don't know.I just wonder if the marketing folks at M-B Canada decided that cruise wold be useless, along with wider tires.......

[FormerEnthusiast]

On my accelerator pedal...I do not have the kickdown switch. I have felt it in other smarts, and seen the difference in the base assembly...But can confirm that I do not have kickdown, just like I don't have softouch.I remember getting an extremely high quote a while back to add softouch... And my dealership said a new accelerator pedal would be part of the package.Eddie

[SmartieParts]

Well there you go. I installed a cruise on a pure just last Friday and was demonstrating the kick-down switch to the lady because she'd never heard of it. It was that recollection that had me thinking it was in all cars. Can Pure's get softtouch? I don't recall. I guess so though, huh? I should call her and clarify now, because I probably thoroughly confused her (and/or made me look stupid) saying that she has the switch but it doesn't apply to her because he bought a pure. Somehow didn't occur to me to look at the shifter and confirm she did(n't) have softtouch :)So that's where my logic came from, and I see now where it was a leap. My mistake.Double-tap! Ok, that's NOT how the MDC MaxSpeed function is engaged. To engage it, you simply "scroll" the rotating switch downward when the cruise (maxSpeed, or normal cruse) is off. This will turn on the unit, and set the MaxSpeed to the current velocity. If the cruise is already on, then rotating it down simply decreases the set speed by aproximately 1kph. - Steven

[smarter]

Softtouch was the only option on my Pure. I never even use full throttle let alone hit a kickdown switch! While on the topic of Cruise Control, I've noticed a couple quirks with mine. 1)When initially set, the speed tends to creep up a couple of kph. After adjusting down it seems to remain stable2)When the Softtouch downshifts on a hill, it will accelerate to redline, in excess of the 'set speed' and then ease back to the set point.Are these normal behaviors?

[SmartieParts]

#1 - I've only observed that behavior when either a) You are using it at a low speed like 40 - 60kph (not really cruising speed anyway) or you set it while you are accelerating. If that's the case, the cruise reads the set speed based on what the car reports is its current speed, but while accelerating that speed is slightly higher than that indicated on your dial (why? beats me - but I observed this with the digital speedometer of the MDC computer too). If you get to a speed and hold steady when you set it, it should be right on. Minor variations may exist I suppose, but nothing that I've noticed anyway.#2 - I presume you are using SoftTouch at that point, correct? Softtouch has a FAR too aggressive shift threshhold for hills in my opinion. Anyway, it is true that steep hills can throw off the cruise. This isn't all that abnormal from my experience with other cars. Another behaviour I've noticed is that say you have it set at 100kph and you are going up a steep hill... once you crest it, and are going back downhill, the car will tend to race to 120kph. I have no answer for this. But my Caddy did the exact same thing. - Steven

[smarter]

I don't mind it being abnormal, as long as that is normal. 1)I was trying to set it to 118, and it would creep to 120-121. I don't think I was accelerating.2)On the downhill, does it stay at 120? What about at the bottom, does it return to 100?

[SmartieParts]

You know... on those few times its happened where it accelerated to 120, I ended up shutting it off and resetting it, so I don't know what it would eventually settle on. I'm no engineer... I don't know exactly how the cruise does what it does. So I don't know if it has a finite number stored (ie. maintain speed at 100kph) or if it uses some other method (ie. maintain speed at "current" level) that the car gets fooled on in some situations. Again, I don't know.. but the same thing happened in other cars I've had including my Caddy (which was the first car I've ever had with a "useful" cruise) so I'd imagine it has to do with limitations and/or methods common in modern car computers.Its pretty minor though and easily corrected. I don't know why it happens, but the next time it does I'll let it keep going and see what speed it settles on because I suppose it could just be a delay. I'll pay more attention next time it occurs. - Steven

[MrGadget]

As a Euro Smart Owner with factory installed cruise and softtouch I can tell you this:* Max Speed is set by pushing the tip of the lever inwards for about 5 seconds, and you will se LIM displayed on the dash, Long push will cancel again.* a short push on aforementioned tip cancels cruise and will require human input on the accelerator pedal to keep goingOtherwise it works like a regular cruise:* accelerate to desired speed* rotate ring on lever downward to set cruising speed* step on gas to overtake, will resume automatically when foot is lifted from pedal.* disconnects when brake pedal is touched.* resume by rotating ring on lever upward. * fine tune speed by rotating ring up/down to add/subtract speed.Very happy with how it works and it was a deal breaker for me when I got my smart, if they hadn't been able to install it afterward I would probably be driving a Citroen C2 VTR about now....

[SmartieParts]

Thanks for the first-hand input on the OEM cruise! - Steven