More about Electric Vehicles

[MikeT 747]

For an American sedan, that is indeed a revolution. Compare and contrast with a Chrysler 300 V-8.Are there better cars? Yes, of course!

[Francesco 71]

I think you're missing most of the point though: it's an electric city car with comfort and convenience features of a regular sedan, that can complete the average North American's commute on electricity only, yet is capable of being used for journeys much greater than that if necessary.

According to the EPA, the combined fuel economy is 3.9 L/100 Km or 60 mpg (US). For someone living where electricity is cheap (Manitoba, Quebec), and with a daily commute of 50 Km or so, it would cost about 60¢ a day -- the equivalent of 1.0 L/100 Km. In many ways the Volt is a ground-breaking car.

[Huronlad 186]

Compare and contrast with a Chrysler 300 V-8.

The Volt would be closer to the 200 at twice the price, if the 200 only sat 2 adults and 2 children/small adults.

[PrairieBoy 1]

The 100% zero tail-pipe emmision Nissan Leaf is ALSO quite capable of longer journeys,once more 30-minute 'quick-charging' stations are in place across North America. You just plug it in ,while your enjoying a coffee/lunch break.And there are NO tail-pipe emmisions during the trip,unlike G.M.'s Volt.

[Huronlad 186]

I think you're missing most of the point though

I do not think I am missing anything. GM has tried to combine a short range electric commuter car with a small sedan and the end result is lesser because of it. If they wanted to be ground breaking they should be producing a bare bones 2 or 3 passenger pure electric with a 60 mile range and a well appointed 4 passenger car that gets 60 mpg and package the two cars as a set for $35,000 - $40,000.So as not to just pick on the Volt, the execution of the Nissan Leaf is flawed as well.

[Francesco 71]

Other than being the ugliest car I've seen in recent memory, how is the Leaf similarly flawed?

[Francesco 71]

I do not think I am missing anything. GM has tried to combine a short range electric commuter car with a small sedan and the end result is lesser because of it.

If they wanted to be ground breaking they should be producing a bare bones 2 or 3 passenger pure electric with a 60 mile range and a well appointed 4 passenger car that gets 60 mpg and package the two cars as a set for $35,000 - $40,000.

So as not to just pick on the Volt, the execution of the Nissan Leaf is flawed as well.

Show me one single four passenger car that gets 60 mpg US.

You do realize that a sizable chunk of the cost of an electric is the battery pack, yes? For this first generation of electrics, even a bare-bones city car will cost thousands more than a well-appointed gasoline car, precisely because of the battery pack.

Why would I want to buy two cars? That is utterly wasteful.

Have you seen a Volt or a Leaf in person? Driven it? I don't understand the source of your displeasure with these, yes, ground-breaking cars. If all you are going by is the Michael Moore-ish propaganda of Who Killed The Electric Car? all I can do is laugh out loud. A good friend is a Cal Tech PhD scientist currently working for the US Navy, designing rockets. he did work on the EV-1 and has nothing but horror stories to tell about it. He says not to believe the film and that the car was a death-trap.

[Huronlad 186]

Other than being the ugliest car I've seen in recent memory, how is the Leaf similarly flawed?

I wrote the Leaf is flawed but not in a similar way to the Volt.The motor is sized larger than necessary making the car less efficient and not designing the car to more closely adhere to motorway speed limits is also wasteful. I am also not convinced that the capacity and range of the car is going to be needed in real world applications, possibly more waste.

[MikeT 747]

I couldn't consider an EV unless its worst case scenario range was 200+ km. Obviously a lot more people could do with a lot less range.

[Huronlad 186]

Why would I want to buy two cars? That is utterly wasteful.

You may have no need for more than 1 car in your household and currently neither do I. However the average Canadian and US households have approximately 2 cars.As for my opinions on both these cars, I see what amateur EV builders can come up with on very small budgets and the mass produced offerings from GM and Nissan seem to come up lacking.

[Huronlad 186]

I couldn't consider an EV unless its worst case scenario range was 200+ km. Obviously a lot more people could do with a lot less range.

I am in the same boat and wish I had the disposable income to built my own EV. A converted smart or Saturn would be fairly easy to build, for 3 season use anyways.

[Speedie 4]

Whole problem with any vehicle is that the energy has to come from someplace - for electric cars in the large part of southern Ontario that means either coal or nuke power. What is more relevant is reducing our consumption - so we don't have to build more power plants or oil wells or mine toxic materials to build solar and wind power. We seem quite content to make the pollution issues someone elses problem (unless you live right next to a generating plant).

To do that we need to change our mind sets (as most smart owners have) to embrace better mass transit, not having a mega mobile to haul one person around, and just generally becoming more consious of how our behaviour influences things. Right now the car manufactures are going for the "Feel Good" psychology of "oh - I am so environmentally friendly I drive and electric car" to demand ludicrus prices for half baked technology that really aside from creating the problem elsewhere does nothing to fix the real issue which is over consumption of resources (Junk your almost new SUV and buy a new electric SUV - now that is a good use of resources!).

Electric cars are nothing new and in fact they really haven't progressed to much - they still depend on lead acid cells (typically) - they still have to be recharged from electricity sourced from less than friendly sources and they still loose overall efficiency in the converision (several times) of one form of energy to another and then into motive force.

So until engineers come up with something out of the box and totally new (and no, fuel cells are not ever going to fly for general transportation - that is why Ballard got out of the biz) - I think I will stick with my highly efficient little putt putt that can burn alternative fuels and the pollution is where I live rather than in someone else's backyard.

We really haven't gotten much further than they did in 1907!

Cheers,

Cameron

[Francesco 71]

Isn't most of BC's electricity sourced from hydro?

In Quebec, 97% is hydro, 2% mixed thermal (gas, nuclear) and just less than 1% from non-hydro renewable sources. True, hydroelectricity isn't as green as most people assume -- they have to build the plants and infrastructure, flood vast areas of wilderness, and the source (in Quebec) is thousands of Km from consumers -- but the net dirtiness of hydro is still several factors less than any thermal installation.

Back on topic: at the Montreal Auto Salon, Mitsubishi didn't have a production i MiEV on display, but had both the Hydro Québec test program model as well as the original Transport Canada (Japanese) prototype. The Hydro model was locked, but the RHD demo model was open and available for sitting. It is exactly what many people believe an EV should be, a small, functional, bare-bones city car. I could see myself driving it.

The Leaf was also open and accessible. It was a real US production model, and it is truly well-appointed and luxurious. But the exterior design reminds one of an anteater or an aardvark. Ugly for sure, but it is larger than I expected it to be. One problem I have is where they located the charging port. If the future of EVs includes an infrastructure of charging points throughout cities, installed like parking meters, why on earth did Nissan choose to put it under a large panel in the centre of the nose? Worse, the car will be simply useless between a minor fender-bender to the time it gets repaired (with thousands of dollars of damage from the simple bump).

The Volt is the most pleasing-looking design, and the most mainstream. It has less useful space than the Leaf, but much of the cockpit is better-designed and more inviting to an average (read: non-geek) driver. It really is a stepping stone in the right direction. The price is not yet set, but I'm hoping the rep was mistaken with his "$48000 in Canada" guesstimate. If it's closer to the $40000 price in the US and more provinces match Ontario's $8500 incentive program for EVs, the Volt begins to look fairly attractive.

[robm 1]

for electric cars in the large part of southern Ontario that means either coal or nuke power. What is more relevant is reducing our consumption - so we don't have to build more power plants or oil wells or mine toxic materials to build solar and wind power. We seem quite content to make the pollution issues someone elses problem (unless you live right next to a generating plant).they still depend on lead acid cells (typically)

right now (at this moment) wind is almost contributing as much as coal for Ontario as a whole. Coal is supposed to be phased out (finally) in a couple of years. See attached.Lead acid batteries are NOT used of electric cars. They were back in the days of EV1.

Edited January 22, 2011 by robm

[MikeT 747]

BC Hydro is at capacity. Some IPPs export (or will) power to the USA. The Columbia River Treaty "downstream benefits" power is not available to BC. So if everyone went for electric vehicles, we'd need a fair whack more dams....

[Speedie 4]

Dams are not that environmentally friendly - especially to the vallies that they flood - and BC (as are most places) is all out of the real handy uninhabited ones.

I would like to see your facts if you think Ontario is that widely wind powered - you would have to cover the province in windmills to generate that sort of capacity not to mention when it is not windy (you can't store energy effectively from wind power) - last time I checked there was a heck of a lot of coal heading eastward - and wind power is not without it's environmental issues (bat kills, weather alteration, visual issues). Here is a link to the wiki for the generation of power in Ontario - (2600 MW total for wind - Nanticoke Coal Plant alone produces 4096MW with majority being produced by Nukes and Hydro - Ontario Power which is 70% of the generation produces 22,000 megawatts - most of it consumed in the Toronto area).

Ontario Power

Wind power

As far as the batteries used - the current generation of electric car (Prius, Honda) batteries are still lead and still acid - just packaged differently than your average starting battery - you couldn't afford a car with metal hydride batteries and I sure as heck would be nervous driving a lithium ion battery car (such as the Volt) given the tendancy for them to go boom rather dramatically in a short circuit situation such as an accident. Lithium is a particularly reactive metal and one that most recycling plants and other facilites are not well equipped to deal with - so expect a healthy fee for disposal when needed or a real impact on the environment when it is dumped illegally.

You might say I am not convinced that the complete life cycle consideration for electric cars is that green or is it economical (watch electric rates go way up if people move to that source for transportation - happened when we all started to heat with electricity...).

Cheers,

Cameron

[robm 1]

BC Hydro is at capacity. Some IPPs export (or will) power to the USA. The Columbia River Treaty "downstream benefits" power is not available to BC. So if everyone went for electric vehicles, we'd need a fair whack more dams....

Is BC at capacity in the middle of the night when most electric cars will be charging? Or is there an issue with running down resevoirs? I know in Ontario there is lots of excess capacity at night I believe without resorting to coal. Edited January 23, 2011 by robm

[Huronlad 186]

As far as the batteries used - the current generation of electric car (Prius, Honda) batteries are still lead and still acid - just packaged differently than your average starting battery - you couldn't afford a car with metal hydride batteries and I sure as heck would be nervous driving a lithium ion battery car (such as the Volt) given the tendancy for them to go boom rather dramatically in a short circuit situation.

Not sure where your "facts" are originating from?The Prius battery is NiMH and the replacement cost is quoted from one source to be around $3000.For Li-ion batteries they must have the following built in safety features. * shut-down separator (for overtemperature) * tear-away tab (for internal pressure) * vent (pressure relief) * thermal interrupt (overcurrent/overcharging)

[Francesco 71]

Huronlad is correct. All the current parallel hybrids use NiMH battery backs. The RAV4 EV (of which there are a few still running about) also used a NiMH pack, but all the current and future highway-capable EVs use lithium battery packs. Even the Mercedes Benz S Class uses a lithium starter battery, and the S400 BlueHybrid is the first hybrid to use a lithium pack.

[Speedie 4]

Prius Battery The only the most recent vehicles have NiMH.

Lithium Reactivity - Reacts well with water - pretty high in the reactivity scale and pretty impressive when it goes off in say the quantity you would require to power a vehicle.

Electric vehicles are not the panacea to the problem of personal transport - perhaps a stop gap - but not a solution as a whole - inspite of the sales pitch being put forth to make them seem so sexy.

Cheers,

Cameron

[Francesco 71]

On top of the fact that all EVs powered with LIBs never allow the pack to be charged above about 90% full or be discharged below about 20% (80/30 in the case of the Volt), LIB packs are actually made up of hundreds or even thousands of individual cells -- often 18650-format cells just like in laptops -- wired in a series-parallel configuration; in the unlikely event that one cell failed -- despite the safety features -- it would not lead to a catastrophic explosion or fire.

[Francesco 71]

Prius Battery The only the most recent vehicles have NiMH.Lithium Reactivity - Reacts well with water - pretty high in the reactivity scale and pretty impressive when it goes off in say the quantity you would require to power a vehicle.

Electric vehicles are not the panacea to the problem of personal transport - perhaps a stop gap - but not a solution as a whole - inspite of the sales pitch being put forth to make them seem so sexy.Cheers,Cameron

This is incorrect. The Prius has always used a NiMH propulsion battery in the North American model (NHW11 from 2001-2003, XW20 from 2004-2009, XW30 from 2010 on); the lead-acid 12V battery is only for accessories.Again, WRT catastrophic failures, it is too simplistic to say "Lithium reacts with water." Gasoline reacts with air and heat, but that does not stop us from combining the three to run our IC engines. Please read the post above to get an idea of how the battery packs in EVs are built, and the safety protocols used to prevent failure.

[robm 1]

"Electric vehicles are not the panacea to the problem of personal transport - perhaps a stop gap - but not a solution as a whole - inspite of the sales pitch being put forth to make them seem so sexy"I would say it depends on the price of oil. Bill Ford actually said he is hoping the price of oil increases (as expected my most) so that the auto industry has a clear direction going forward - away from the ICE.

[PrairieBoy 1]

I found more information yesterday,on the numbers of Canadians really interested in the Nissan Leaf.From Nissan Canada's media site: "Over 6,000 canadians have already signed up for the latest information on Nissan Leaf at www.nissan.ca/leaf"As this is before the car is even on sale in Canada,i think this is a very good indication of possible future sales.Compared to smart's first introduction into Canada,sales of the Leaf may easily surpass smart's first year sales.I wonder how many Canadians would have 'signed up' for info on the smart PRIOR to it's arrival?I wonder if 'Mike' has any stats on the number of people interested in smart,BEFORE it's arrival v/s the actual first year sales?It would be interesting to compare the two cars.

Edited January 23, 2011 by PrairieBoy

[MikeT 747]

I wonder how many Canadians would have 'signed up' for info on the smart PRIOR to it's arrival?

A couple thousand did, despite there being no hyperbole in the press, as there has been ad nauseum with the Leaf.